Comments on: Five Reasons Churches Need to “Come Out” on LGBTQ Rights https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/ Staying true to the foundation of combining Jesus and justice, Red Letter Christians mobilizes individuals into a movement of believers who live out Jesus’ counter-cultural teachings. Fri, 29 Jul 2016 08:48:05 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.2.20 By: The Untamed Podcast https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/#comment-170623 Wed, 03 Dec 2014 19:08:00 +0000 https://www.redletterchristians.org/?p=14750#comment-170623 Doug, can you be sure homosexuality (in a monogamous way) is a sin? Of the thousands of verses in the Bible, only 6 or 7 deal with the idea of homosexuality and none of them fit the context of today. In fact, if you take Romans 1 for example, the only mention of homosexuality is during the antithesis of the argument Paul is writing. Michael Hardin explains in the following:

Campbell argues that Romans, much like Galatians and 2 Cor. 10-13 (Paul’s ‘tearful letter’) is directed against a specific false teacher and that it is the false teacher’s perspective which is being quoted in 1:18-32, a perspective which Paul will repudiate in chapters 2-4. In this case the phrase ‘wrath of God’ is the false teacher’s perspective. It is well known that Romans 1:18-32 reflects the kind of Jewish anti-Gentile rhetoric one finds e.g., in The Wisdom of Solomon 12-14.

Paul’s use of the rhetorical strategy of prosopopoia whereby an opponent’s view is cited and then debated, according to Campbell (and Ben Witherington III as well) would have been understood by the hearers of this epistle inasmuch as Paul always sent readers of his letters and they would know where and when to change the ‘tone of voice’ when reading the letter aloud. This third view then understands the phrase ‘wrath of God’ to be antithetical to the gospel, but part of the false teacher’s position. Following on this, all the subsequent uses of the word wrath could, if part of the rhetorical strategy, be understood as the calamity of social breakdown. The eschatological character of the ‘wrath’ seen in societal collapse prior to the advent of ‘The Day of the Lord’ became in time itself God’s eschatological wrath. Campbell’s reading of Romans is one way to ameliorate this type of reading.

Either way, we better not be dogmatic about it because I am no scholar and from the looks of it, neither are you. Better to tread lightly on matters that we may not fully understand.

Blessings.

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By: doug_mmm https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/#comment-170622 Fri, 21 Nov 2014 04:47:00 +0000 https://www.redletterchristians.org/?p=14750#comment-170622 Sorry Traci that’s just plain fallacious. So unless you are sinless you can’t condemn pedophiles? Racists? etc…????

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By: Linda Lou https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/#comment-170621 Fri, 31 Oct 2014 15:10:00 +0000 https://www.redletterchristians.org/?p=14750#comment-170621 OK, after reading this I really fear our churches are sadly going down a twisted path of accepting anything and everything. Just like the U.S. is toying with just throwing out the constitution, the church is toying with ripping out and discarding scriptures as it suits them. Don’t you all see what is happening? We are going to be dancing around our own golden calf soon. Recently I found a Christian school for my child that has strict standards that the parents and kids are asked to follow. They are excellent standards that are intended to build character and grow leaders in the Christian faith, and are closely aligned to the Bible. We are joyfully OK with making the effort to meet those standards, much like we as Christians should joyfully work to meet the standards that Jesus sets forth for us, and that the Bible speaks of. I am really tired of seeing all these books and churches glorifying our sin, weaknesses and failures…how depressing. We chose this school after visiting several who were bending to the standards set by the world and by the parents and kids. It took months to find a school that had the guts to take a stand and be exemplary in every way. My son who had long hair, was getting lazy after attending a school with no standards and where they just handed out As is now enjoying getting up every day in his short hair and uniform. He is motivated to do well. What a turnaround! Families have come to this school from all over the U.S. and we are all expressing the same thing…finally a school that leads our children and us, and not the other way around. I wish our churches were brave like this school. Our churches have become weak and ineffective because they are not bold and walking with the Holy Spirit’s guidance, leading the people on a path towards righteousness. They are bending to what society says, and are trying to attract new converts by allowing them to “be who they are”…case in point, the church in Tulsa hosting a beer and hymn event featuring this author above as a guest (3-beer limit y’all). Hogwash! This is idiotic. I think we are ushering in a time when many Christians will experience great disillusionment and a falling away fulfilling Biblical prophecy…it’s on the horizon. Wake up Christians! The activity written about in this article is SINFUL, especially where he has led his children to participate. Yes, Jesus would love all people around Him who are in sin, but He would not celebrate their sin like this author is doing.

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By: doug_mmm https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/#comment-170620 Wed, 03 Sep 2014 05:33:00 +0000 https://www.redletterchristians.org/?p=14750#comment-170620 Traci , apologies for the delay in response. If you are so concerned with biblical injunction then I suggest you focus on the biblical verses that condemn homosexual practice. However I fear that would be too politically correct for you. Wonder why you don’t link those to your current position?

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By: Traci https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/#comment-170619 Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:21:00 +0000 https://www.redletterchristians.org/?p=14750#comment-170619 “you forgotten the numerous case in the Bible where
homosexuality is condemned?”

Well, there are only six, and they focus on certain acts, not homosexuality itself. No, I’ve read your clobber passages. They, and those that believe them to be a condemnation of homosexuality drove me to attempt suicide, because I couldn’t be straight or cis no matter how hard I prayed, and how hard I tried. My first attempt was when I was about 11.

“You know perfectly well that Christians are now being persecuted in the US and Europe
for opposing militant homosexuality.”

What’s your predominant thought when you walk out of your house to go somewhere? Mine is knowing full well that I might be attacked or murdered for merely existing. What do you do when you walk into a building? Any building? I’m already looking for a quick exit in case things get crazy. I also have a plan in place for my roommates and their kids. If things go crazy, they are to go, just leave. Go home. Because I don’t want them hurt. Do you have 911 on speed dial? I do. You probably think I’m kidding. I’m not.

Persecution? You don’t know what that is, Jack.

Go look up how much risk there is for Christians being murdered by those of other religious faiths, or non religious people. . Now think about the following facts and statistics easily verifiable.

Although social acceptance for transgender people is growing, parents
continue to abandon youth with gender-identity issues when their
children need them most, advocates say.

49 per cent of transgender people attempt suicide.

Transgender youth account for 18 per cent of homeless people in cities such as
Chicago, but researchers estimate fewer than 1 in 1,000 people is transgender.

1 in 12 transgender people in America is murdered.

Transgender youth whose parents pressure them to conform to their anatomical sex
report higher levels of depression, illegal drug use, suicide attempts and unsafe sex than peers who receive little or no pressure from parents.

Washington, D.C. – Hate crimes statistics for 2010 are out from the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The good news is that, overall, the numbers of reported hate crimes last year held steady. The FBI report, accessible here, documents 6,624 single-bias incidents, which range from acts of vandalism to cold blooded murder. Four more incidents encompassed multiple-biases, making for a grand total of 6,628 incidents reflecting 7,699 offenses as reported voluntarily by law enforcement agencies around the nation. These data represent a serious undercount of the actual number of hate crimes perpetrated against Americans during the last year, since 1) reportage by local law enforcement is sheerly voluntary with no funding from the federal government to aid small jurisdictions to report, and 2) local law enforcement officials are often loathe to classify an incident as a hate crime because of a variety of reasons, such as how the community regards social groups and racial/sexual minorities.

Behind the statistics are the stories of flesh-and-blood victims and their families, and the news here is disturbing. 1,528 victims were targeted because of animus against sexual orientation. Of these, 57.3 percent of victims were gay males, and 11.9 percent were lesbians. The numbers of violent attacks against transgender people are fragmentary at this point, since statistics of this particularly vulnerable group have only been recorded by the FBI since the Matthew Shepard-James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act was signed into law by President Obama in October 2009. But the news of brutalities against transgender people, especially transgender women of color, is alarming. GLAAD reports that, of the people murdered for sexual orientation and gender identity and expression bias, 70 percent were persons of color, and 44 percent were transgender women [NCAVP figures]. Though suicides of LGBTQ teens due to homophobic and transphobic bullying in schools have captured the headlines repeatedly since 2010 began, no separate FBI statistical category yet exists for the collection of these data.

In the recent Civil Rights Conference on Hate Crimes at the University of Texas at Arlington, Assistant Attorney General Thomas Perez declared in his keynote address, “We are experiencing a headwind of hatred and intolerance in the United States.” FBI Special Agents appealed to local law enforcement, U.S. Attorney officials, and leaders from the North Texas LGBTQ community to co-operate in the reporting of hate crimes, underlining the difficulty feds are experiencing amassing accurate data. In its 2010 report, the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs (NCAVP), widely held to offer more accurate statistics on anti-LGBT hate crimes than the FBI, noted a 13 percent rise in homophobic and transphobic violence from 2009 to 2010, and a 23 percent rise in the murders of LGBTQ people.

Media coverage of these outrages has been poor. The average American does not believe that anyone has been killed for being gay since the murder of Matthew Shepard. After the flurry of interest waned following Shepard’s murder in 1998, the killings of LGBT people have been buried in the back pages of newspapers or not reported at all in the national press.

The regional or local reporting that is done in the mainstream media often minimizes hate crimes by seeking to blame the victims for the evil that befell them. When victims are non-white, female, disabled, no longer young and attractive, or transgender, thier stories are downplayed even more.

Take for example a recent Newsweek cover story which on the surface seems open to reporting about the anti-gay hate crime that claimed the life of Lawrence “Larry” King. The article, however, has come under scrutiny for having used biased language, anti-gay catch phrases, stereotypical descriptions, and one-sided reporting to characterize the victim’s own role in the hate crime that claimed his life.

Even coverage by the LGBT press appears occasional, spotty, and selective. Yet the brutality continues apace in such a way that whole regional populations of LGBT people are being terrorized while national press turns a blind eye and deaf ear, helping to construct a new closet of fear in America.

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By: doug_mmm https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/#comment-170618 Fri, 22 Aug 2014 05:40:00 +0000 https://www.redletterchristians.org/?p=14750#comment-170618 How do
you know if I have the correct motives? Re Gaystapo thing – what else would you
call it? I thought Christians were supposed to tell the truth? You know
perfectly well that Christians are now being persecuted in the US and Europe
for opposing militant homosexuality. Do you think true love is telliing someone
what they want to hear? Sure I have no idea what your sins are and don’t want
to know but you don’t know mine either so how does that help us. As for Christ
would never have said that nor would he have said militant homosexuality was
okay either or have you forgotten the numerous case in the Bible where
homosexuality is condemned?

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By: Traci https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/#comment-170617 Fri, 22 Aug 2014 00:28:00 +0000 https://www.redletterchristians.org/?p=14750#comment-170617 But you don’t have correct motives. You should judge from a place of love. This quote: “Well they don’t call them the Gaystapo for nothing.” Is not at all loving, you’re lumping me in with Nazism, and that is downright disgusting and hateful, and Christ never would have said that. That’s one of yours. In order to love me you have to get to know me. You have no idea what my sins are.

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By: Traci https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/#comment-170616 Fri, 22 Aug 2014 00:19:00 +0000 https://www.redletterchristians.org/?p=14750#comment-170616 “Well Jesus never spoke about racism”

“Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For
whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen,
cannot love God, whom they have not seen.” John 4:20

pornography (tied to lust)

“You have heard that it was said,’You shall not commit adultery; but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.” Matthew 5:27–28

corporate abuse and fraud (tied to gred)

Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”

Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”

And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’

“Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’

“But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.” Luke 12:13-21

You are right that illicit drug use/abuse, and the sale of such are not mentioned in the bible. However, we are supposed to respect our bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit.

“paedophelia”

…”And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but
whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble,
it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his
neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6

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By: doug_mmm https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/#comment-170615 Thu, 21 Aug 2014 08:04:00 +0000 https://www.redletterchristians.org/?p=14750#comment-170615 Well Jesus never spoke about racism, pornography, corporate abuse and fraud, drug-dealing or paedophelia so by your argument they must be ok then?

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By: doug_mmm https://www.redletterchristians.org/five-reasons-churches-need-come-lgbtq-rights/#comment-170614 Thu, 21 Aug 2014 08:02:00 +0000 https://www.redletterchristians.org/?p=14750#comment-170614 Exactly wrong Traci, in John 7:24 Jesus stated “Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.” Got that? Judge Correctly ie judge with the correct attitude. As for your log analogy , aren’t you doing that towards me? After all you’re judging that homosexuality is OK and promoting that fact. Implicit in that point is that it’s thus wrong to say homosexuality is not OK. I think you’ve actually shot yourself in the foot by the self defeating nature of your log analogy and you’re saying Jesus was wrong to tell us to judge with the correct motives rather than wait until we’re sinless.

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