Me too, for me. I’ve read a quote that goes something like “share the Gospel always, and only when necessary use words.” I think I’ve been talking at you too much, and not sharing the Gospel enough. I see sharing the Gospel not as speaking a truth, but living it. Taking care of those God puts in my path, whether it be nurturing their soul or body (through food, clothing, healing-y things) or just listening to their problems and giving hugs if needed. Your friend has already heard all of the arguments condemning his “lifestyle”—he doesn’t need that from you Zach. Just share the Gospel., only use words when you absolutely have to. There’s an awesome book by Emily Timbol called Two Words. It might help to read it.

I came out in my first post in full battle gear. I’m so sorry. You have to understand that while I forgive those that have “trespassed against me”, they’ve left deep and incredibly painful wounds. The Holy Spirit is healing me, but it takes time, and I’m not there yet.

<3

Like I said, I agree with you that individual Christians have treated gay people poorly and have therefore betrayed their Christian calling to bear the fruit of the Spirit. Do I know why they do this? No. I personally have a very good friend of mine who just came out as gay, and I am struggling through how to show love to him. I’m not perfect, no one is. I think that perhaps evangelicals need to tilt their imperfection towards love and concern rather than condemnation.

It is my hope that as I live my life, I can inhabit the tension between loving those God puts in my path and also speaking the truth into their lives. I think that the two cannot be divorced. You cannot really love without speaking the truth, and you cannot really speak the whole truth without love. It is a tension that even the most spiritually mature Christians would struggle to navigate.

So, to answer your question, I think that Christians have treated the gay community so poorly because they have erred on the side of judgment inside of the side of love. The good news is that this is a correctible mistake. I hope and pray that that does happen, just as I hope and pray that gay Christians are convinced of the scriptural witness of how to live as a gay person (i.e., a celibate). I know that that sounds harsh to you, but I do not mean it harshly. As you say, I have been convinced that that is what Scripture calls for.

No, not the Church. Individual Christians. Almost all of them. If you want Christians to get better at relating to us, what are you doing to help? Besides prayer. You can help by openly and publicly encouraging groups such as “Americans for the (un)Truth about Homosexuality” to stop their shameless lying and disgusting mischaracterizations of us. Will you? Somehow I don’t think you love us that much.

Just so we don’t get into a pointless argument, for the sake of argument let’s say you’re completely right, because you think you are, and there is no way to convince you that there’s the possibility that you are wrong. Let’s say you’re right. What gives you the right to withhold rights from others that you probably take for granted? No, I’m not just talking marriage. It is legal in this country in some states to fire someone simply because they are gay or trans, to deny someone housing because they are gay or trans. and all other manner of discrimination. Where did Christ say to do this? Let’s also talk about those of us who are LGBT who have been disowned by family, and nearly driven to suicide, if not actually pushed people to it? You say that you don’t deny that Christians have undoubtedly dealt with gay people poorly in many cases. I want to know why. Christians are not permitted to treat people poorly. Treating people poorly isn’t loving. So why have other Christians treated us so poorly, as you have readily admitted?

1. You say that I reduce relationships to sex acts. I don’t do this. The reality is that sex acts are a *relevant* part of marital/sexual relationships. And the other reality is that it is possible to have relationships with people without engaging in sex acts. Relationships that include sexual activity are fundamentally different than relationships that do not. I believe that the Bible makes it clear that *sexual* relationships are only licit between one man and one woman. Mutual commitment and faithfulness can be found in any relationship, whether sexual or not. Those goods are not particular to marriage. The good of sexual activity and procreation is, however, particular to marriage.

2. You say that “procreation has nothing to do with loving commitment,” and imply that therefore sexual relationships between two people of the same sex are licit, because they can embody loving commitment. I agree that procreation has nothing do with loving commitment. In fact, sex has nothing to do with loving commitment. I have many loving, committed relationships with other men that do not by any means involve sexual activity. The good of sexual activity however, is linked inherently to procreation, since procreation is only possible through sexual activity. Therefore, it seems that you are making a mistake here by saying that the defining feature of sexual relationships is loving commitment. Loving commitment is possible without sex, procreation is not.

3. You say that there are only six verses in Scripture which mention homosexual activity and that all of them refer to coercive sex practices. This is simply not true. I will refer you to this: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/GagnonHomosexuality.php

4. Finally, you say that *my* truth degrades people, reduces relationships, causes people to hurt themselves, makes the gospel unavailable to those who identify as gay, pushes people away from Jesus, and for all those reasons is not truth. Let’s go one at a time.

First, I don’t think that the truth of saying homosexual activity is sinful degrades gay people more than saying that lying is sinful degrades liars. All people sin, that is just the reality of living in a fallen world. But, all people, including gay people, are created in the image of God and are more precious to God than anything in all creation. When people wrap their identity in their sinfulness rather than in their Creator, then it can feel as though people are attacking their personhood when in fact they are only attacking the sin. This can be solved by wrapping our identity in God, not in our fallenness.

Second, I cannot deny that the Church has undoubtedly dealt with gay people poorly in many cases. This is something it needs to get better at, and that I pray for every day.

Third, in no way does anything I or evangelicals say about homosexuality have anything to do with the saving message of the Gospel. The Gospel is unequivocally available to all. The salvation of Christ is not earned, but given freely by grace, and grace has no limits or boundaries. It is my hope that the transforming grace of the Gospel would lead people further and further from sin.

When your truth reduces relationships to sex acts, it’s not loving. If it isn’t loving, is it truth?

“I will make him a helper fit for him.'” And who does God make for him? A woman”

Yes. In order for Earth to be populated by human beings, God would have had to create a male and a female. That’s for procreation though. Procreation has nothing to do with loving commitment though, does it?

“Then, throughout the rest of the Scriptures, we see consistent, strong, unequivocal prohibition of homosexual activity.”

No, Zach. No “we” don’t. You do. There are only six verses in the whole of the Bible discussing “homosexual activity”, and in all instances it refers to coercive sex practices. It does not discuss loving, committed same sex relationships anywhere, at all.

“They are interested in protecting ontological reality that marriage is and proclaiming the truth.”

When your truth degrades people, it’s not loving.
When your truth reduces relationships to sex acts, it’s not loving.
When your truth makes people want to hurt themselves, it’s not loving.
When your truth makes the gospel something that is only available to people who believe like you, it’s not loving.
When your truth pushes people away from Jesus instead of toward him, it’s not loving.

And if your truth isn’t loving, is it really truth?

However, the Bible is abundantly clear from its beginning to its end in how it portrays the good of marriage: what it is for, what it is built on, etc. And thus, the evangelicals you and I are discussing are not saying that certain people do not have a *right* to be married. Of course, all people have a right to be married and anyone in our country can be married. The point that many evangelicals are making is that marriage is only ontologically possible between one man and one woman. Two men or two women who live together and engage in sexual activity cannot actually be married, regardless of whether the state says they are or are not.

Why? From the very beginning, in Genesis, we see this. What does God say regarding Adam? Genesis 2:18 – “Then the Lord God said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.'” And who does God make for him? A woman. And what are the implications of this? Genesis 2:24 – “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.” Then, throughout the rest of the Scriptures, we see consistent, strong, unequivocal prohibition of homosexual activity. We see it in the levitical law and we see it in the Pauline epistles, and we see it in Revelation. I could quote them all, but the Scriptures are clear.

You say that Christians are trying to force people to live the way that they do. I have never seen that to be the case. I have never heard one Christian advocate that we should keep tabs on every person and stop them from having sex with another person of the same sex. Evangelicals are not interested in forcing people not to sin. They are interested in protecting ontological reality that marriage is and proclaiming the truth.

Probably not, but one can hope.

“Republicans already hate women, don’t they Frank?”

I wouldn’t call it hate, but they certainly aren’t loving toward us (women)

If they are really ‘teaching and proclaiming what the message of the Gospel requires in our particular cultural moment’, please show me in the Gospels (book, chapter, verse) where it states that Christians should deny rights to people that they themselves enjoy, where it states that Christians should force others to live how they do, and when people don’t Christians are to kick and scream until they get their way.